From Beautician to Art Director in Tech: An Interview with Meg Gregory

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Beautician to art director in tech; an interview with Meg Gregory

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Find Meg on LinkedIn.

Meg works at Animated Tech.

Transcript

Edd: So I first met Meg a couple of years ago at the local science park. She was working in an agency there, working on VR, AR and animated projects. As it would seem with many women in tech, she didn't come to the industry through a traditional path. When she first entered the world of work, she worked as a beautician and a nail technician.

However, in a relatively short space of time, she is now working as the art director in a marketing agency, which services clients across the technology sector. How about that for an intro?

Meg: Yeah. Yeah, that's me.  

Edd: So first off, tell me in your own words a bit more about what you do.

Meg: So I managed the animation VR and AR projects from a creative point of view. We're a small team, so I do quite a lot of client comms as well. But, basically, our clients, everything that they're looking for is bespoke.

We're providing a unique solution to our unique clients. A lot of our clients are working on or with technologies that are at the starting point or in development. They're not an everyday, widely used thing. They're revolutionizing themselves in their specific areas. And so there's not a pre boxed solution for them and for their audience.

So my job is to talk to the client and figure out the best solution and provide them with different options, and make it happen and facilitate.  

Edd: So you had a non-typical journey into tech. You've gone from nail technician to art director. What was the moment you decided to change your trajectory?

Meg: Going into beauty in the first place was probably born out of being quite stubborn while I was at school. I had plenty of people telling me what I should be doing, and I, I didn't want to listen to them basically and decided to do something completely different.

I remember one of the deputy heads sitting me down and saying, Why are you going on to do beauty [00:02:00] therapy? Why don't you be a cosmetic surgeon instead ? And I said, why is everyone being so snobby about it? And, didn't want me to do it. And I just thought, sod you, I'm doing whatever I want.

Because actually, what my dream was to be a special effects makeup artist. That's what I really wanted to do. but anyway, I went into beauty and ended up working in a salon, for a good few years. I like to be expressive with how I present myself and that's what makes me feel comfortable. And within that industry, I had to wear a uniform every day. It was black from head to toe. I couldn't have any tattoos. I couldn't have any coloured hair. You had to be perfect and pristine all the time.

And then you had to deal with many people who spoke to you like you were the dirt scraped off their shoe. And that is part of working in the service industry, unfortunately. But I just felt like I was wearing this mask every day. And I [00:03:00] missed creating.

Outside the salon. I was, making art and, designing stuff and upcycling furniture and doing all these little different creative avenues. And I just thought I need to be doing something that's creative day to day.

I met some really lovely people there. A couple I'm still friends with now,, I'm grateful for that experience, and it taught me a hell of a lot of things but yeah, I decided to go back to art college while I was there.

So I did two years at art college where I did a B tech, and we got to try it. all sorts of different disciplines like ceramics, enamel stuff, glass, wood, life drawing, graphics and that kind of thing. It was probably the best two years of my life, to be honest.

 It was the most fun I've had just creating things all the and learning all those different disciplines. But when it came down to it, it seemed like the most commercially viable, was graphic design. And that's what I decided to do at uni.

I graduated in 2020. When COVID was happening. So at the end of that, uni just closed, and we had to finish our degrees at the end of that. And my jobs, my job at a design studio fell through, and I moved back in with my parents, and we moved to Wales and I struggled for a while with that and then, found animated technologies who were looking for a production manager. 

 It feels miles away from beauty, but actually, it links up with those scientific and technical interests I had when I was at school. , synergized into one role , That's, that's been right for me, which is what I'm doing now.

Edd: So you missed your university graduation. Did you not get doffed on the head with the!? whatever it is, they bonk you on the head with?

Meg: Did you get bonked on the head?

Edd: You know what I mean, they bonk you on the head with something don't they in the graduation ceremony?

Meg: I missed the uni bonking. Um, of the head. No, it just, it just shut. Uni just shut really suddenly. So there was no degree show. Often that's where people get their jobs from, is that someone sees them as New Designers and then will take them on.

So we didn't get any of that. We had a virtual degree show. I think probably about 10 people looked at my work, I reckon, that I did for final year. But yeah, it did, that downtime after uni did push me to, end up writing a research article, , which was a continuation of my career. Dissertation and final project

Edd: What was the subject.

Meg: It was called social media. , I designed an app that was trying to rebalance natural and digital lifestyles to help people, use social media in a more positive way. So, you have to spend a certain amount of time outside a day to be able to get interactions on the social platform.

And it was also linked to a plant that had a little tracker in it that basically your plant had to be happy for you to be able to even get on the app. Because there was this whole thing about, looking after something. Else helps you to look after yourself, it's better for your mental health.

It was about having this whole like balanced relationship with the digital and the natural worlds and just trying to make social media a more positive experience for people instead of just doom-scrolling.

Edd: Yeah, the hellhole that it is.

Meg: Yeah, yeah.

Edd: So do you ever look back on your time working in the salon and miss it?

Meg: I do sometimes. I met so many interesting people, while I was there from all sorts of walks of life. I do love talking to people and learning about their story and people really open up to you when you're in that environment.

And I think it's also Because it gave me the sort of social skills to be able to make people feel comfortable. In that situation, you've got to build that trust, and that comfort quickly.

I think it's definitely, it definitely taught me how to be warm and welcoming towards people, and help people to be comfortable. I miss that. I miss the social side of it.

Edd: You don't get those same kind of interactions in tech, then?

Meg: When I'm talking to people about their projects and their business, their story feeds into it, and I think it's always interesting to hear people's journeys as well as what they're selling.

Because it provides a bit of an interesting, an interesting viewpoint, on what they've done and why they've achieved it. And actually, a lot of the time, part of that story, maybe part of their struggle or part of how they've got there, makes their technology or makes their brand a bit more human.

And people do buy into that a bit more.

Edd: So I can imagine there are a lot of differences in the culture. But I'm guessing there are some similarities as well.

Meg: So I think I am more relaxed with my time schedules now, but when you're used to being in an environment where your day is split up into 15 minute blocks, and you have to keep to those 15 minute blocks else you're going home really late or you're not getting a lunch break.

It teaches you to be really, economical and strict with your time and to keep track of time a lot. So I think that's, that has definitely led into the management side of what I do now is making sure that I'm staying on top of everything and I've got my allocated time where I can delve into different projects and move between different teams and reviews and that sort of thing.

There are Definitely similarities there.

Edd: Have you got any advice for anyone else that might be looking to transition into tech?

Meg: I think, even if you don't consider yourself as a particularly technical person, the tech industry does need those other inputs.

It needs the designers, it needs the problem solvers, it needs people who are looking at it from maybe more of a human side or looking at social impacts of things. I think the most important thing is collaboration with different people.

 I think, just do it. It's hard for me to say as a creative person who feels a little, like a little bit of an outsider to the tech industry. Because I don't initially understand a lot of the things that I then have to describe. , but it's that's part of it, and it's, understanding all of these different things.

And learning about them as you're working on them and providing that solution is , fascinating. And I think if you're a person who likes seeking knowledge and, learning about new technologies, that it's a really nice place to be.

Edd: So, research suggests that many girls tend to engage with tech much later on than boys do. [00:10:00] Was this the case for you, or was technology something you always felt drawn to?

Meg: I think it has been something I've been drawn to from a kind of young age. I had a couple of computer games when I was younger. That, encouraged digital drawing, which I didn't actually really think about until very recently because we were talking about old computer games we played as kids at work.

And I was talking about this game called Orly Draw a Story and it's on, there's a video of it on YouTube. That and Barbie Riding Club, but, that was, yeah, that was good. But, yeah, Orly Draw a Story, , Orly, the character, would tell you a story and periodically she would stop and you would have to draw the character that was in the story and there was all these different paints and materials that you could use and, , then , the drawing that you would done would then animate in the story in the next, And I was thinking about [00:11:00] that and I thought, considering what I'm doing now.

Edd: It's just funny how the computer games we play could become us, especially when people often have this negative association with kids playing computer games. But my favorite kind of computer game has always been resource management games of one kind or another.

Meg: Yeah.

Edd: So things like, you know, when I was younger, like Theme Park and Theme Hospital. Balancing resources, building things, making things run smoothly. And I realize now that's just completely transitioned into what I now do for a living. . But then I, of course, also played. Jungle Book and Zelda and shooting games and I don't run around the jungle in a loincloth and I don't go out with a gun shooting things so, yeah, it's interesting which bits, implements of which bits don't I guess.

Meg: It's true to a point because I would spend hours on that game and also I would spend hours on Sims but I would only ever design the characters and build the houses. I wasn't interested in. the actual gameplay of it. I just wanted to do the cheat code, get as much money as possible and make the grandest and jazziest houses and then I'd start another one without actually playing the game with the people living in there.

Because I think it's just a visual person, I just wanted to create things and see what things look like and Yeah, it is fun.

Edd: The Sims is one that I absolutely love as well. But again, I just cheat and just build the perfect house. That's all I ever did with it. But I remember so clearly the first time I heard about the Sims, someone was telling me about her playing of Sims. And, she said that, she got fed up with the husband, so when he got in the pool she took the steps out and just left him in there.

Meg: The only time I played The Sims properly was Just after my degree actually, I thought the world's on fire and I've finished uni now, I'm getting Sims 4. And although it almost killed my laptop, it was absolutely worth it.

Edd: So one of my questions is going to be at what point did you really get into computer design? But you've answered that really with the computer game question. You kind of got into it [00:13:00] with,

Meg: but then I had a massive gap. Then I did have a massive gap, , where I didn't, didn't really use a computer at all for design for a really long time and it was only at the end of college when I really started doing digital stuff, and that was more manipulating things that I'd done by hand.

Like when I think about the effort I went to for my final project at college, I could have just really easily done some digital drawings, but I didn't know how to do it. So I did these massive, illustrations with fineliner pens that took me ages, and then scanned them, and then put them together.

like manipulated them digitally. And it took forever. If I'd have just done them , straight digitally, it would have just, it would have saved me a hell of a lot of time, but , I didn't know how to, it was only towards the end of college that I started getting to grips with it and learning more about Illustrator and InDesign and, Photoshop.

Edd: So we talk a lot about getting girls into tech at a younger age. Do you [00:14:00] think that there's anything that could have changed how soon computer based artwork was something you were interested in?

Meg: I don't know what they do in art classes now at school. Maybe they do encourage people to work more digitally with things, or maybe they are still taking a very sort of hands on approach, I'm not sure.

I recently went back to my high school to talk to some of the graphics students there. My graphics teacher is still at the school, Mr. Ripley. Who is an absolute legend.

Edd: Big shout out to Mr. Ripley.

Meg: Big shout out to Mr. Ripley. Yeah, he is one of the main reasons why I'm doing what I'm doing now. Because he was just a brilliant teacher. But some of the kids that were, working on the computers which we didn't do that much of when we were at school. So I think that's probably it is that schools moving with the time and recognizing that digital is taken over and working with the tech rather than trying to, , make school a no phone or a no digital place. It's, using these tools to actually [00:15:00] help and enhance learning so that kids have an understanding of it, so that they know where their skills can be applied.

Because the job that I work in now, I didn't even know it existed, and it probably didn't exist when I was at school in the way that it does now. , I was having a similar conversation, the other day that was a bit of an offshoot about one of the projects that we were working on is that, bringing VR into classrooms, bringing in the gamification of some of the learning tools, it really shows, how learning has changed, and how that in itself can help to engage more people because it's, less traditional forms of learning, which means that, the kids that maybe weren't interested in those kind of things at school or that were bored or under stimulated, that they've got a different way to receive that information as well.

Which I think the more sort of inclusive and, the more open that education can be with different ways of learning, the more people are going to feel confident into going into areas like tech,

Edd: so the first time I played with, , vr mm-hmm was, was in your office. I don't know if you were there that [00:16:00] day. I went into the office and I was being demoed, I think it was Abba Ruler. Yeah. Or one of the VR apps, , for teaching kids Welsh. And, , I was demoed that, I had the headset on for 15 minutes and, . I just, it completely tripped me out. I just completely, I mean, at the time I was enjoying it and having , a nice enough time of it, it was a bit discombobulated, but afterwards I just completely tripped out. I completely disassociated. I felt like I was on a different planet. And the funny thing was, it's not like I just sat down and had a cup of tea and it went away in 10 minutes for a day or so afterwards. My head was not right. It fundamentally messed with me. I don't know if I'm just a sensitive soul.

Meg: Did it make you feel, did it make you feel dizzy? Or do you mean it just, being so immersed in the situation then made you feel uncomfortable when you came out of it?

Edd: I think it was that. But the following day I was just away with the fairies. I don't know how else to describe it. But I did it interesting. I did do a bit of research. It was, I did see something it was saying about how VR can have that [00:17:00] effect on anxious people. It's a weird thing.

Meg: Well, you've taken away your vision completely of your surroundings. Which can make people feel very uncomfortable. I'm very sensitive to motion in VR. So if things aren't designed very well within the VR space, they make me feel really sick instantly. I was watching some, 180 footage in a VR headset yesterday. And it made me feel so sick instantly. I was like dry even in the office.

Because I just felt so dizzy. So yeah, VR does affect people in different ways and, we, we try and be as mindful as, of that as possible, but kids seem to be more, um,

Not, not everyone has as delicate constitution as I do, clearly.

 Yeah, it's not for, it's not for everyone. There's still, you know, accessibility issues with VR.

Edd: Yeah. For sure. It's interesting. It's something I would like to get more into, but after that experience, I was like, well, I won't be putting one of those headsets on again for a little while.

Meg: I think maybe you would prefer one of the more, , current [00:18:00] headsets, because that would have been a Quest 2, I think, that you used with Avarula.

Yeah. Whereas the Quest 3 has got pass through, so you can see, you can see your surroundings. And it's more, you can have more of an augmented reality experience rather than a completely virtual reality experience,

Edd: When I first asked you to do this interview with me, you told me you were flattered, but you didn't really consider yourself a woman in tech, and I managed to convince you to participate anyway by wooing you with a promise of tasty teas. But, your statement really stuck with me. Why do you think you don't fully relate to this label?

Meg: I think in my heart of hearts I just feel like a traditional artist that sort of accidentally ended up in this space. I mean I know when I think about it I have the skills that have made me competent at my job but, I love painting, I love making pots and crocheting jumpers and that kind of thing.

In my own head I am like a, what's that? I'm like a Wind in the [00:19:00] Willows character, like in front of a fire, like a little field mouse, I mean the size of me, I'm not a field mouse, but in my head I'm like a little field mouse knitting a jumper by a fire. And I think saying that I'm a woman in tech, it does, it feels like the future. And I just, I don't know. I think because I am the creative mind sort of problem solver behind these things, that it feels like I'm not in it. I'm on the side of it. I'm helping tech, but I'm not in tech.

Edd: I think a lot of people not to diminish what you've just said, I think it's more common than most people would realize to feel like an outsider in tech because the image of tech that has been built up by the incumbent practitioners makes a lot of people feel excluded from it. But at the same time, there are a lot of people working in tech that feel like you're describing like they're much more like they're blowing, so to speak, um, that they've just landed in tech. It's something I, hear quite a bit people who represent underrepresented minorities in tech. It's a very common thing to hear. They feel like they've accidentally landed in tech and they don't know quite how they did [00:20:00] it. And that it's all a little bit of an accident.

Meg: I think as an industry though, because it's moving forward and it's changing all the time, it's important to remember that even when you're looking at people that are in tech, that are the techiest of techie people, that actually they're still having to evolve, adapt and change and understand new things and find problems to new solutions as things evolve and come up with new ideas.

Edd: 100%

Meg: so yeah, I guess you shouldn't feel like an outsider really, because everyone's still just evolving and figuring it out themselves, but.

Edd: Yeah, they are. It's just interesting that there's this incumbent image of what tech represents and, , it's been created by internet culture and. Everything else

okay, Another question. So a year or two back, I saw you speak at Wales Tech Week. How do you find speaking at events like, you smashed it by the way, but I mean, how do you find speaking at events like this and where do you find the courage to do it?

Meg: It's a performance, it's all a performance, I grew up dancing very badly on a stage [00:21:00] and feeling very uncomfortable in social situations and then worked in a job where I had to be social all the time. It's,

Edd: I mean, your chat at Wales Tech Week was great. It's a rough. It was really great, but I'm not going to deny if you added a dance

Meg: get the high kicks out and get everyone really entertained. I just, in those situations, I just have to embody the person who I think would do the best at what I have to do. So if I feel like I have, if I have to do public speaking, I think, right, who's the person I know who's really good at this? What do they do? How would they approach this? How would they be feeling about it now?

Edd: I do wonder if anyone is not masking or putting on a performance in those situations. It must all be performative in some respect I always think when I, when I have to speak in those situations, I call it playing Billy Big Balls. I don't know how else to describe it. It's just putting on this performance just to get through.

Meg: I mean, it's, it's there. You've got the knowledge. Like I'm not, when I'm getting up and speaking about [00:22:00] those things, it's stuff that I do know. It's just getting over that hump of, Oh God, I've got to talk in front of these people. What have I Burp mid sentence, or whatever, fall down, which is, with me, how clumsy I am, it's a very real possibility,

Edd: So, What contribution do you think we could all make to help improve gender diversity in tech?

Meg: stop describing women as women in tech. Just people in tech. Let's just make the panel that is speaking maybe a bit more balanced, gender wise, background wise, sector wise, like just,

Edd: normalise it rather than label it? Is that?

Meg: I understand a bit of, positive discrimination to make sure that people are being heard.

But at the same time, I've been in quite a few situations where it feels like I'm there because I'm a token woman, not there because I'm really good at what I do.

That sort of makes me feel not as good as some of the other people who are off always men, [00:23:00] difficult. As I say, it shouldn't matter. It shouldn't matter whether I'm a woman or not, if I'm doing a good job, if I'm delivering what a client is asking of me. Why does my gender need to come into it?

 I just want to do a good job, basically. And I think that, having a bit more balance and people just generally just recognising people's contributions and efforts, , and taking it upon themselves to listen to different people from different backgrounds and, different genders and taking on people's issues.

Experience as the individual, could help that a bit.

Edd: It's traditionally something tech's not been particularly good at. And we're still seeing it today because big companies still make products that are fundamentally sexist, fundamentally racist. We're still putting these out because I guess because as you said, we're not listening to those. Those diverse voices.

Meg: yeah, but I also have to accept that in quite a few of those situations, if I wasn't a woman, my voice wouldn't have been heard. Because it's been a women in [00:24:00] tech event or whatever that I, if it was just a tech event, I wouldn't have been invited to or asked to speak at.

Edd: Yeah.

Meg: But also, you've got to create an environment where people do feel Where people from, as I keep saying, like different backgrounds, basically, we're talking about people other than white men, basically, aren't we? Let's say that. So, but it's fostering an environment where other people feel comfortable and feel like they hold space for it.

And unfortunately, in a lot of those areas, there are some kind of not nice people who aren't very welcoming, who will turn their backs on you, won't have a conversation with you, won't recognize your contributions. And that makes it then difficult for other people to feel comfortable to take up space in those areas, I feel. I don't know whether that's going to change anytime soon because of the people, the kind of people that work in these certain areas and the ages that they are and how long they will continue to work in those areas. But I think the more people who are more [00:25:00] welcoming, want diverse voices in our working environments, want people with different lived experiences to come and contribute their ideas, the more that happens over time, it will evolve. And. things will be better.

Edd: It's interesting you mentioned a bit about people turning their backs on you, and it's something I've witnessed at events where people just aren't interested and will turn away, even if you're, clearly very excited to be speaking to this person. You know, people are like, oh, that's lovely, and then just turn away. I wonder if with tech, sometimes, people get away with behaving like that more because of the incumbent culture and whether or not, are we making people like that in tech or are people like that being attracted to tech because they can get away with it?

Meg: I don't know.

Edd: Oh, is it a mixture of both probably?

Meg: So I've come from an incredibly female dominated industry to basically the polar opposite of that. , and it's, it's interesting how people react and behave around you. Because I work, at [00:26:00] work, the office that I work in , is mostly male. And they are incredible, and they, it doesn't ever really .

Come up or is an issue or whatever that,, I'm a woman. I've never felt like, I'm never made to feel any smaller by them or anything like that. We just work, we get on, we get the job done. It's all collaborative. It's all great. But then, for example, like we go to an exhibition. And there'll be three of us stood on the stand.

And, bearing in mind, I'm managing most of the projects. I've worked on most of the projects that we're showing that we can talk about. I'm the person that helps the client to develop their ideas and evolve them. People will always speak to the two guys rather than me. With my, experiences, A beautician, working with the general public, working with strangers.

 I'm very confident and very comfortable in those situations, approaching people, welcoming people, saying hello, getting them into that conversation. But it, they will always rather speak to [00:27:00] the males on the stand,

It's not like nobody would come and speak to me, but , you could see I was quieter, and there'd be like clusters, around them, which is interesting. Maybe I'm just scary.

Edd: Do you dress in a very welcoming and friendly way

Meg: Our branding is black. So whenever I'm representing the company, I am wearing a black t shirt and I don't know whether, Whether the colourful clothes that I normally wear help to portray a more of a sunny disposition and when I'm in black I just like, look like an angry little guff.

Edd: I don't think I ever thought that when I saw you manning the animated text stand in any given example but uh, I know it's easy to feel like that sometimes when you feel like, what's wrong with me?

Meg: I do understand that. But it, but also part of that could just be my discomfort in Being in the space that is male dominated and putting a lot of that pressure and thought on myself. , because that might not necessarily be the case. 

Edd: So a study in 2024 [00:28:00] showed that four in five men still don't think gender diversity is an issue in tech, in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Is this in line with your own experiences?

Meg: I don't necessarily think so, although to be honest in the, in the companies and the spaces that I've worked in there has been a balance in gender. Things, things sort of shift and change all the time. And for the company that I work for particularly, it's just been a case of if we've been hiring or that sort of thing, it's, you know, looking at the applicants and choosing the best person for the job basically.

And, but then again, it's, it's sort of that question of, you know, Well, is it just that women don't feel comfortable applying for those things? Are they not getting into tech from an earlier age? It's just, it's such a massive question, isn't it? That, that I think starts, starts very early in, in education [00:29:00] and, then continues, I guess, in the workplace.

God, it's such a difficult question to answer because it, it sort of throws up a whole, like, gender debate and, like, whether gender's sort of linked to your Likes, you dislikes, you dispositions, whether you're interested in certain things or whether you're not interested in certain things.

Um, and the area that I'm working in the building that I work in is that there's more, there is a real mixture of, of genders and balance there.

Edd: But I mean I saw, I saw a copy of their tenant report this year and the pay gap...

Meg: Oh really?

Edd: I don't have the figures to hand but I remember I had a quick glance over it, I remember seeing that the majority of women in there were working in support roles, and, I guess because of that in part the pay gap was quite large.

Meg: And I guess as well, and another thing to sort of bring into that as well is that the [00:30:00] particular sort of place, the space that I work in is a lot of sort of smaller businesses and SMEs and I don't necessarily think that they could provide the same Level of support that larger companies can provide to women who want to have children

Edd: Hmm,

Meg: you know like maternity support and that sort of thing.

Edd: We're really lucky in Wales I think if your wage bill is under a hundred thousand the Welsh government pretty much pay for maternity leave. I know it's It makes things much easier.

Fact Check; Possibly not. In England and wales there are grants available if your NI bill is below a set threshold https://www.gov.uk/recover-statutory-payments

Meg: It's such a difficult question,

Edd: So I must admit a couple of years back working in tech myself, you know, I had a a bit of an identity crisis myself about belonging in tech and for me, I found that I think I've had these moments on throughout my career and they've often come from when I've been hanging around ecosystems and businesses that I didn't really feel value my contribution and Only in stepping away from those businesses and ecosystems do I then remember the value I have.

So, [00:31:00] what I'm getting to in my question to you, really, well first, do you feel valued in tech?

Meg: Sometimes, is the answer. Sometimes not.

It's hard to get people to understand and value good design. In some of the sort of areas that we work in, and maybe businesses that have been going for a really long time, they've come up with something that's new, but they might be run by people with quite an old fashioned approach. And they don't, want to sit and listen to a woman talk about how important their brand and their tone of voice is within the product that we're making for them and how the consistency is going to help to, increase trust within their company for their potential customers or clients.

And so sometimes it doesn't feel like, my opinion is valued, but I think that's part of it. And I think, tech is a challenging place. Business is very competitive, especially at the moment. And sometimes I think that Everyone else who's in that space is just going through it [00:32:00] as well, and is just so sort of focused on their path, their trajectory that it's, it's hard for them to, make others feel valued because it takes a lot of energy and effort, right?

I think some people just don't have the energy to make that effort.

Edd: Yeah. So following on from that, when you, when you separate yourself from tech and look at your work on its own merits and put aside everything else but the art, do you find you value yourself more or less?

Meg: When I look at the things that I just create for myself, like in isolation on their own, I'm like, I made that. I did that. That's great well, that's really cool. Or, you know, I love making the things that I make, sometimes it's an absolute shit show and it doesn't work out, but it's part of the creative process, right?

Edd: Last serious question. So female led tech companies are still a rarity. What does it mean to you to work in one? And do you think it's shaped your experience differently than working in a male led environment?

Meg: I think it has changed, my perspective. It's interesting,, it's down to the individuals. [00:33:00] It's down to the bosses to make those decisions. And Anna's made a decision to be mindful of balance in life, there's a lot of things as women that are linked to our cycles are linked to our fluctuations in hormone levels brain fog patches , levels of productivity, levels of creativity, yeah, all of the, all of these fluctuations. I'm not saying men don't have that as for a woman, but it's probably only in the last sort of five, five or so years that I've understood how to work with that.

And I think Having a woman as a leader who's a bit older than me, sorry Anna, but like she's, she's

Edd: Not much older.

Meg: No, no, no.

Edd: No, hang on. Now I've said that, I don't know if I'm insulting you.

Meg: No, it's fine. No, but she's, she has obviously learned more about herself and so, you know, Where I've sort of struggled with things, and I've spoken to her about it, and she said, like, this is totally natural, like, there's times in the month where you're gonna [00:34:00] be able to kick a door down, smash loads of work out, and, like, fly, or something, you know, you're gonna be able to do it all.

And there'll be some days where you maybe need to do your more, more admin tasks, but the more you sort of know and learn about yourself and learn about where those fluctuations come, you can sort of balance your work and mold that to be the most productive in those specific periods of the cycle, which I think is, is kind of an interesting way to look at it.

Edd: It's really interesting to hear you say that, because I have spent a lot of time coaching people, you know, looking after their development teams and things like that, and obviously that's a perspective I can't come at it from, but it does feel like from a lot of the male leaders that I deal with, there's just no consideration for that, it's just, People want to talk to me about, you know, how can I make my devs crank out code like machines five days a week, every week of the month, and there's no consideration for,

Meg: Being human.

Edd: Well, for being a human, yeah. For being a human, yeah.

Meg: On one [00:35:00] hand, you want everyone to be treated the same and with respect, but then you have to also accept that we're not all the same.

But then you can't split that just down into gender. It's down to the individual. And I think in the age of more sort of flexible work and in the age where, you know, we're in a, we're in a small business and we are able to balance our own time we've got a bit more freedom, that that's actually a much better way of working and gets more out of people.

It gets more out of me anyway, like if there's a day, you know, I've got days where I can work from home and I can knuckle in and lock onto storyboards and just crank them out for an entire day and then there's days where I know that I'm going to be better suited to being in the office. and doing project reviews and speaking to clients and having meetings and that kind of thing and part of being able to understand how best you work you've got to understand yourself but it has been, helpful having a female leader who is also mindful of those other issues that you , might face as well.

Edd: So , quick questions. Favourite [00:36:00] font?

Meg: I really like one called Oh No Blazeface at the moment, which is very jazzy and psychedelic. But my go to classic is Gotham it's a , solid font, good for all occasions and I stand by that.

Edd: What's the one bit of tech you could not live without?

Meg: My phone. It's got its claws in, has it? It's everything. I love having a camera in my pocket, I love being able to talk to people, I love being able to know what's going on in the world. You've got so much information at your fingertips, it's incredible. I would sacrifice Animal Crossing on my Nintendo Switch for my phone. That just takes precedence over everything.

Edd: I wouldn't let Tom Nook hear you say that.

Meg: Tom Nook's watching us all.

Edd: Biggest creative inspiration?

Meg: Paula Sher, I watched her do a talk at, a design show in Manchester.

And it was just fascinating hearing and talking about working in traditional graphic design and, having to cut things, out of stuff and everything was manual and that kind of thing and then going into working more digitally and I don't know, it works just [00:37:00] really cool.

But Bonnie McLean did a load of, , concert posters for the Fillmore Auditorium in the 60s. And that's it was part of my research when I was in, I think, year 10 at school. I just became obsessed with her and that sort of style of typography. And that's something that I'm still, I still do now and features a lot in my personal work.

So I'd say she's a massive inspiration.

Edd: If you could paint my nails in any one way, what would it be?

Meg: I think I'd probably do, one hand one way, and then another hand another way. So, on one hand, I'd probably do, black with one chrome powder finger, probably, , the middle finger.

So it would be, like, shiny silver, like a mirror. I think that would look really cool and super manly. And then me super manly. Yeah. But then on the other side, I feel like you would need the more rainbows and sparkles side. So I think Maybe some, blues and pinks and mint greens, swirled [00:38:00] together with maybe a nice little wave, wave across it. You know, like, something a little bit groovy, a little bit psychedelic. I think that would be a vibe.

Edd: And I am determined to actually do this one day, Ed. I'm quite open to the idea, but I am flying to Morocco on the weekend, and it's Ramadan, so I can imagine it would be noticed.

Meg: My stepdad has let me paint his nails more than anybody else in my family. And he just always styled it out. He did not care. Paul was always really willing to to let me practice on him, which I'm always grateful for.

It's also really nice painting men's nails because they're massive.

Edd: I think the world would be a better place if more men had their nails painted.

Meg: They just embrace it.

Edd: Yeah. Absolutely. Alright, last question. Well, no, hang on, there's two more.

Meg: Penultimate question.

Edd: Best bit of advice you ever did hear?

Meg: Nobody cares about these things as much as you do. And I think , you can get in your own head all the time and overthink all these things and worry about [00:39:00] yourself. But actually if you let part of that go, it's a lot easier to, to get on with things.

Not that I do that all the time because I'm a stress head, but, it does help sometimes.

Edd: Excellent. All right. I think, I think that's it. I think we're done.

Meg: Nice.

Edd: Any final words? Anything else you want to add?

Meg: No. We're all tired. It's late. It's late. I'm full of tea. Um, the tea was delicious by the way.

Edd: Thank you. Good. I do like to pride myself on my ability to provide good teas, and my fine paper stocks.